This is simply the thread of e-mails sent between Casey Tallon and me. I've removed the e-mail headers and other unimportant information so I don't increase anyone's spam and just put in the e-mail themselves.
The red highlights are messages from Casey and the blue ones are ones I sent.
June 22nd, 2003
Casey,After all the crap that's been flying around between you and "HackAsaw", I went ahead and took the frame I bought from you to a local welder (Kevin) that was recommended to me by someone on the local bike mailing list; no association with either of you as far as I know.
I have a couple of items I'd like to get a response to before I take my next step. I hope you can answer them fairly quickly. Just so you know, Kevin says that the frame is serviceable as is and with a couple of hours of work, it would be, well maybe better or even safer.
1. Kevin educated me on penetration and showed me, in the neck of the frame, where penetration did not occur. He assured me that it wasn't bad but that there was concern over the stress. With a high degree of rake, there's a lot of stress on that lower weld. There isn't any penetration on the bottom halves of any of the neck welds.
2. The lower rear support appears to be crooked. No big deal as far as I'm concerned. I think Kevin just wanted to bring it up.
3. My biggest problem is with the lower tubes. While Kevin was inspecting the welds he didn't notice them but when I put it into his shop, he noticed that the left downtube was bowed and then he noticed that both sides had been welded. It looks as if you joined the top 8 inches or so with the bottom. And with the bow, Kevin is concerned that a smaller diameter pipe wasn't used to support the connections.
I intended on paying Kevin ($90 to $120) to fix the penetrations at the primary stress areas but after seeing the downtubes I'm more concerned with whether a smaller diameter pipe was used for additional strength and mainly with my purchase overall.
Maybe I missed it or something, but I thought that when I ordered a frame, I'd get a complete downtube and not two pieces welded together. It looks as if you took a regular frame and extended it the 8" I specified. And because of the gap between the two welds, it appears that penetration wasn't complete.
I am about to spend another $300 with a welder (probably Kevin) to finish what you did. I'd like to get a response to the three items I brought up above but in particular to item 3. If in fact there are inner support tubes I'll be happier about spending the money. If not, then I'll probably have Kevin cut and put in tubes and weld it up.
Looking forward to your response.
Carl Schelin
June 20th, 2003
Hey Carl,
Cool, thanks for letting me know - let me know if you have any questions as you go along. Oh, forgot those pics, I will get them to you!
Thanks,
June 19th, 2003 Casey, Just wanted to let you know that I received the paperwork Saturday. Thanks again. Carl June 11th, 2003 Casey, Ok, I feel better about the specs. I didn't think they were all that
extreme but there have been a couple of comments. Sugaring: I was pointed to the HobartWelding website/message board and the
reference to Stainless Steel was made. Pinholing: I don't see any pinholes in the weld or the frame so I'm still
in the dark about that. If you could, please send the pics over to my work e-mail account. I have
unlimited storage over there ;-) mailto:cschelin at hq dot nasa dot gov Cutting frames: From the few comments, mainly in "The Horse" and on
"HondaChoppers.com", the frame is cut and a smaller tube is inserted. Wouldn't
that increase the overall strength of the frame? Anyway, that's more of a general question and not specific to either of my
bikes. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Carl June 11th, 2003 Hey Carl, Well, about the stretching and broken frame, yes, if a customer comes to me with a really insane idea about a frame - like gooseneck frames, for instance - I will say something about it. If the design is something that requires a stronger tubing, I will tell them. And I have told people that I wouldn't build what they wanted, because it was too extreme or would be a serious safety issue. So, YES! To answer your question, I would tell you if your design was too extreme (which it's not) - The sentence would start out something like this, "Cool idea! Ya know, if I were you, I'd....blah blah blah..." I have seen the pictures of the crack now (how could you miss them...). A crack in that exact spot (I.e., right behind the gusset) is outlined in most motorcycle manuals as being involved in a head-on a collision. It is usually accompanied by small cracks in the head tube itself. It is not a very common thing to see, as tubing is very hard to break in such a way. Now, on the other hand, the tale of horror with my CB750 started after I wrecked it. I'd laid it over on a steel grated bridge in the rain and slid for awhile. It smashed the stator (among other things), so I figured well, it's a pretty easy fix and I replaced the stator. What I didn't know at the time was that I had actually bent the crank as well in the process. So, not only was I going through stators like there was no tomorrow, the engine shook so bad that it would snap bolts, engine mounts, AND the frame tubing. Pretty much anything that came in contact with it, including all the lights that the bike had and fillings in my teeth. In my case, it was the down tubes that snapped. And this all happened within a two week period!
I can't pass judgement on Mike's frame, like I said, I haven't seen it in person and it's unlikely he would tell me that anything happened anyway. Like when you break down in a rental car, do you tell the company that rented it to you that you were spinning cookies in the Wal-Mart parking lot when the wheel fell off? Nope. As far as welds go - sugaring is a effect that looks basically like large clumps of sugar thrown on the weld. It's usually associated with welding of stainless, though. Pinholing is what it sounds like, they are small holes along the length of the weld. Usually predominant when welding rusty or dirty material. I am going to dig through some of my books and scan some pics - they have excellent examples, causes, and effects, of good and bad welding.
I will send them to you. In regards to cutting frames, versus buying or building a complete new one - a continual piece of material is always going to be stronger than one that has been cut and rewelded. Every time a frame is modified the strength is compromised, no matter how good the welder is. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to email, and I'll try to get those pics later this evening. Thanks, Casey June 10th, 2003 Casey, Cool. Thanks for the explanation of the difference between the two frames.
At the moment I don't see the need for a brace although later I may add a
designed one. That'll depend on how the bike comes out :-) On the subject of the broken frame, one of the comments on a message board
was related to the specifications that were provided to you and that the frame
was stretched which may have had something to do with the stress fracture. Being a relative novice at frame design, I would hope you'd caution someone
(like me) if the design was too extreme and suggested a thicker top tube or a
brace to support the design rather than waiting for the customer to request
it. I've seen the specs that I requested on other bikes pictured in various
magazines which is where I lifted them. You know, "that's a nice looking
stretch and rake, what are those specs?" So to the main question, based on your comment as noted above; is my design
too extreme and should it have additional support before using it? I have noted all the messages flying around on the various boards and just
shake my head. All that energy when a technical discussion would likely solve
the problem. What is sugaring? What is pinholing? What are some examples of good welds
and bad welds so people can compare. I didn't expect a $2,000 frame when I ordered from you. I do expect a frame
better than I would do if I were to cut my stock frame :-) So far I think I'm
ahead, if nothing else in knowledge :-) Thanks again. Carl Schelin June 9th, 2003 Hey Carl, I completely understand your concerns; the paperwork will be there by the end of the week - sorry I didn't get it to you sooner. With the gussets - on the double down tube frames (Yamaha and Honda CB750) there was a huge debate in the chopper scene several years ago on whether or not to use them. Where one customer was fine with it, another customer was wondering "what's that ugly thing up there by the neck for?). At that time, some people started cutting the gussets out for a cleaner look. So...on the double down tube frames, I leave them out unless the customer requests it. If you WOULD like gussets, I would be more than happy to add them in for you. It would take me less than an hour, and I could have the frame back out to you the very next day (I know you would be concerned with the time frame of getting it back - and I don't blame you a bit) On the other hand, in the case of the British, single down tube frames - I will not build them with out a brace or a gusset, it's the customers choice of which they would like. The reason for this is that the single down tube style is subject to quite a bit more stress on a single tube, rather than being distributed evenly between two. To answer your question regarding the strength of the frame - Yes, it will hold your motor and two people! It is in no way a weak, or poorly designed or built frame. Lots of hoopla over me lately, huh? It is a mig- welded steel frame, made with the same material as the OEM frame - very strong, very durable. And the big issue! The broken frame. I have talked to the customer about it, however he hasn't sent me any pictures or the frame itself for inspection. From what I gathered talking to him on the phone, the backbone tube (not any of the welds on the neck itself) had a stress crack in it about 5" down from the neck, and the motor mounts had broken previously. In my experience, there are only two things that would cause those to occur - a front end collision, or being subjected to violent vibration. In the case of the second, typically the welds would break first, and I am the first to admit that I have cracked and broken several frames myself (stock Triumph, Amen, stock H-D, and my own) by running overpowered unbalanced engines that I hadn't anchored down properly. However, I can't say for sure, since I haven't seen the frame! Which leads me to the oil tank mounting. Take any tank, thick or thin, whether it be aluminum, stainless or steel. Properly mounted they will last for years, improperly mounted they will crack, threads will strip, and stress cracks will form around bungs and on seams. The most common mistake is not using isolation rubber studs. They have to be vertical, mounted to separate tabs, not a cross bar under the seat. This is why most after market oil tank manufacturers will not extend their warranty to cover a tank after it has already been mounted. There are just too many variables. Of the all tanks I have sold over the years, I have had 6 come back. In 2 of the cases, it was my fault - in the others, there was damage caused by a number of different reasons. However, in all cases, I repaired or replaced the customers tank. Sorry for the rambling, it's late and I am going to go to bed now - but if you have any more questions, feel free to let me know. Talk to you soon,
June 9th 2003 Casey, A couple of questions here. 1. The paperwork. I haven't received it and we're approaching two weeks. Any idea when it'll arrive? 2. Normally I see a piece of metal behind the head of a bike frame. In
this case I don't see it and don't know just how important it is, possibly not for a smaller engined bike. Can your frame hold up other components of a motorcycle; the engine being the biggest one, and two adults? I've been reading the message boards, HondaChopper being the main one. Several folks have expressed concern over your methods and the quality of your products; oil tanks too thin and welding quality. One of the main comments I'm concerned with is regarding a broken frame. Unfortunately I wasn't able to read the thread but just saw references ("Friend of a friend" so to speak) so I don't know the circumstances. Is there any truth this? Thanks again for your time. Carl Schelin May 30th 2003 Casey, Cool, thanks. Thanks also for the pic. It's not quite what I'm looking
for so I'll keep hunting. Carl May 28th, 2003 Hey Carl,
May 27th 2003 Casey, The frame has arrived and looks good. I appreciate the work that went into creating it. Everything
seems to be in the right place per my specifications. I've taken some pictures to put on my site and will be able to move
forward now. Next is the front forks and an oil tank/battery holder. I realize that you're not taking more orders now, but do you have any oil tanks already fabricated? One additional thing. There was to be a bill of sale and certificate of origin provided so that I
can register this along with the engine in order to make it street legal. When can I expect to get this paperwork? Thanks again. Better late than never :-) Carl Schelin Airborne Express Shipment History: May 12th ======================================
May 9th Mr. Tallon, It's been 5 months and I don't have the frame I ordered. The lack of
communication is by far the worst aspect of this. I am a very patient man as
you can tell but my patience is wearing thin. I occasionally check in with the other Honda Chopper Heads on the
HondaChopper forum and am finding that my experience is unfortunately not
unique. I see other folks who have ordered frames recently and are expecting to get
it in 6 weeks, per a conversation with you apparently last night. I don't
realisticly seeing that happening and am concerned that you are feeding them
this line. I really want to maintain good relations with you since you have something
I greatly want and since you're not trying to make a lot of money off of this,
but I find that because of the comments on the HondaChopper forum and my own
experiences, I'm forced to file a complaint with the Oregon Better Business
Bureau. The funny part is that I see a Honda frame on your web site now that wasn't
there in December when I looked. I'm sorry it had to get to this point. I hope I can still get the frame I
ordered from you. Thank you for your time. Carl Schelin May 6th Casey, This was supposed to be out three weeks ago. The frame was supposed to be
in my hands around the end of January. It's time, man. The frame or the money. Send it today. Carl Schelin April 18th Casey, Fortunately I'm patient and busy :-) What's coming? Frame or check (he asks
hopefully)? Carl April 18th Hey Carl,
April 17th Casey, Hey, I understand busy. If you haven't started work on the frame then just
refund the money I sent ($425). If you _have_ started, please let me know what
you think delivery date will be. If you need my address let me know. Thanks, Carl April 8th Casey, I really hate to keep pestering you. Do you think I could get a realistic
delivery date? I understand you're busy and all but I did submit my order back
in December with an anticipated delivery date of the end of January. It's getting warm enough that I'm not going to be able to spend as much
time as I'd like on the bike because of the wife's "Honey Do" list. I really
wanted to be close to completion this summer. I really appreciate your attention to this matter. Carl Schelin April 1st Hey Carl,
March 27th Casey, Just checking in. Do you have any idea about when you'll be done? Thanks. Carl March 9th Casey,
Thanks. I've been looking at a couple of designs and I think I prefer the
springer front end. It'll let me extend the front wheel a little giving more
front end stability. I'll make a note of Forking by Frank and check it out. Thanks again. Carl March 7th Hey Carl,
March 4th Casey, No big deal. I expect the next thing I'm waiting on are the forks. Any good
suggestions? Thanks for the quick response. Carl March 3rd Hey Carl,
March 3rd Hey Casey, It's the beginning of March. What's up with the frame? Just checking to
make sure there's no problems. Thanks, Carl December 19th Hey Carl,
December 18th Excellent. I hope I gave you enough information for a proper build. I read
magazines, checking out the frame specs on the ones I liked and then searched
the net for an example. I used a paint program to piece together the bike,
virtually and believe I have exactly what I want. Thanks to you to for helping to get a good foundation created. Carl December 17th Hey Carl,
December 10th Excellent, thanks for the quick reply. I'll pop out there and place my order. Thanks again. Carl December 9th Hey Carl,
December 8th Hello, I was directed to your site from the HondaChopper message boards. I'm interested in a price and wait time for a frame. Specifications are: 43 degree rake
I'm still searching and picking out parts. I have my eye on a 75 750F
(SuperSport) engine. It's attached to a bike so I'll have parts but I'd rather
leave the framing to the experts. Thanks for your time. Carl Schelin
Casey
Casey
Great, glad it arrived safely - the only oil tank I have on hand right now
is this one, I call it the BOMB, because, well, because it kinda looks like
one. Or a pill maybe, I'm not sure yet. It is longer than the flat sided
one, so it would fit the CB750 frame better - the 5x9 is a little short.
Anyways, let me know what you think.
The paperwork goes out certified mail, and you will be receiving it shortly
as well.
Talk to you soon,
Casey
5/27/03
1:49pm
Delivered
Alexandria, VA
7:45am
Arrived at Airborne Station
Alexandria, VA
5/23/03
11:36 pm
Processed at Sort Facility
Allentown, PA
11:34 pm
Processed at Sort Facility
Allentown, PA
5/22/03
2:08 pm
Processed at Sort Facility
Wilmington, OH
5/21/03
12:05 pm
Processed at Sort Facility
Western Wash Hub, WA
5/20/03
8:04 pm
Left Airborne Station
Portland, OR
4:59 pm
Picked up by Airborne
Shipper's Door
AirborneExchange Shipment Notification
======================================
On May 12, 2003 a shipment label was printed by Casey Tallon
((503)723-0373) of TALLON KUSTOM EQUIP for delivery to Carl Schelin. The
shipment number of this package is xxxxxxxxxxx.
Sender's message:
'No message.'
Thanks for your understanding, it'll be going out Monday AM, and I will send
the tracking # for Airborne as well. Thanks again,
Casey
I am trying to get it finished up this week, and sorry again to keep you
waiting!
Thanks,
Casey
What kind of forks are you looking for? You might try Forking by Frank if
you are going to go with lengthened hydraulics. Let me know if you have any
more questions,
Thanks,
Casey
Yeah, I am running behind a bit. No problem with your order, just taking
longer than I expected. Sorry for the delay, and I appreciate your
patience! Feel free to email if you have any more questions, and I will let
you know when it goes out.
Thanks,
Casey
Yep, that's all I need, and I will let you know when she's ready to go!
Thanks,
Casey
Just writing to let you know I received the M.O., thanks! Turnaround time is currently around 4-5 weeks, and I will let you
know when it's ready to go out. Let me know if you have any questions,
Thanks,
Casey Tallon
The turnaround time on frames is currently about 4-5 weeks, and the price is
$435 delivered.
The specs you need are no problem, let me know if you have any more
questions,
Thanks,
Casey Tallon
8" rise
4" stretch
Honda 750 engine mounts